Had an interesting day today. I grabbed a handful of tracts and headed to the dog park to walk my dog, as I was leaving I asked my wife to pray God would use me. Within minutes I was in a conversation about Christianity with three men. Here are three interesting aspects of our conversation. The last one I have left open for conversation.
One man argued that all religions are basically the same. I replied that Christianity is completely unique because it’s the only religion that has an answer for man’s sin. God Himself was willing to leave glory and go to a cross as our substitute; He allowed our sins to be poured out on Him and to be judged in our place. Therefore any who place their faith in His saving work will have their record of sin wiped completely clean.
He followed up by saying he believed God would forgive everybody anyway. After all his mother forgave him for everything he had done so why wouldn’t God, isn’t God more loving than his mother? I took him to Revelation 20 and the great white throne judgment where the books will be opened and each man is judged according to his deeds. This gave me the opportunity to reiterate that in the case of a believer there will be no sins listed in those books because of the work of Christ. If God has already judged those sins on Jesus He will not judge them again on the believer.
He had obviously had enough of this and became a bit more aggressive. He said he really didn’t believe in God anyway and couldn’t understand the concept of a God who supposedly knows everything before it happens yet would continue on with creation. If He understood man was going to fall and must be punished with hell why would He continue on with His plans? He used the example of an ant hill. If you were creating an ant hill and knew they would rebel, forcing you to pour lighter fluid over them and burn them why wouldn’t you stop before that happens? He piled on one more thought. If you knew a man was going to be a rapist and murderer would you still create him? Right at that moment the conversation unfortunately had an abrupt interruption and we were unable to continue.
I think this is a great opportunity to sharpen our evangelism skills by discussing this.
WHAT WOULD YOU HAVE SAID?
Pastor Bill: Obviously men wouldn’t go on with their plans (if they knew their creatures would rebel, that would be unacceptable to us … how dare they). Further, we wouldn’t be willing to incarnate as one of them and take their punishment (dished out by them no less); God would, and did. That’s direct evidence of how much he loved us. This is the perfect opportunity to jump in with a clear description of the difference between sinful, selfish men and a loving, selfless God.
Now, as to the rapist and murderer, God didn’t create him that way. That behavior is the result of a broken, sinful and rebellious world and years of the individual in question not walking with God or according to His word; the person to whom you witnessed wouldn’t have to worry about his loved ones being raped or murdered if everyone was practicing the behaviors prescribed and demonstrated by Christ (i.e., the greatest commandments … “Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind” and “Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself”).
However, to make sure he realizes the full extent of “obeying” the greatest commandments, take him to the sermon on the mount and delve into the deeper requirements of God’s law; we’re all guilty at that level. With that knowledge he stands guilty (as we all either do or did) and is subject to God’s judgment. At this point, the question transitions to … what’s his plan to escape God’s sure judgment?
Hi Pastor Bill, When I am asked about why God put the two tree’s in the garden of Eden, why he allows evil to exist, I say that our Father wants a Love relationship with his children, He gives us a choice, He doesn’t want robots who have no choice but to worship Him, He wants a genuine love relation where we come to our Father out of our own free will. For God so Loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son…
“If He understood man was going to fall and must be punished with hell why would He continue on with His plans?”
One answer is that it would be the best way for God’s free and gracious redeeming love to be made known as it would never have been made known if man had not fallen and that making Himself known is God’s greatest pleasure. Of course since your guy was aggressive already, I don’t know if I’d have the guts to tell him that!!!!
Amen to what my wife said, short and simple and to the point. That’s something I need to learn as I tend to get long winded. Be direct, ask them hard questions, don’t get side tracked, answer one question before moving on. And defining terms really helps, (especially here in Romania) By the way Krista would have had the guts to do so. You’re not as wimpy as you think you are.
Thank you everybody for your comments, these kind of conversations are very helpful in honing our skills.
Hi Pastor Bill,
Witnessing can be tough because we never know what we will encounter when we talk about Jesus. Sometimes that can be scary–but God will give us the strength, knowledge of what to say, and the power to get his word to unbelievers and those who just don’t know the truth.
Regarding the man’s comments about all religions being the same, I would have said that Christ was the only man who claimed to be God, he brought the dead back to life, he died and rose from the dead for the whole world’s sins if we will just accept him as our lord and savior and follow him (his apostles witnesses him going into the clouds, and Jesus had over 500 witnesses who saw him after his death.)
If Jesus just died and was not resurrected from the dead, Christians would not exist because he would have been a kook and fraud. His apostles and others would not have given their lives for a kook and a liar. But Jesus still lives today! Jesus claimed that he was the “way, the truth,and the life and no man comes to the Father except through me.”
Other religions are different in that those so-called prophets were always in search of the truth (even to the point of their death), they never once claimed to be God, and they died. End of story. Budda died. Mohammed died. Joseph Smith died. These were just men and none of them rose from the dead.
Jesus came to earth the first time as a loving God-man to save us from our sins. His second return will be to judge man. He is a just and fair God and loves us, but cannot tolerate sin. Therefore, he will return and judge those that are unbelievers.
God allowed man choice to love him or not. How can God really know if someone loves him unless he gives him free will and a choice? Unfortunately, man sinned and that is what causes all these troubles on earth. The good news is that no sin is worse than any other in God’s eyes. Someone who has a bad thought is just as sinful as a rapist. God is holy and cannot tolerate sin. That is why he sent Jesus (the perfect God/man) to die for us so that we could have a personal relationship with God. If we deny Jesus, Jesus will deny us. If we don’t have a personal relationship with Jesus, Jesus will turn us away saying he never new us and those will not enter into heaven. The only way to heaven is through Jesus.
One last thought–hell was not made for man. Hell was created by God for Satan and his fallen angels. However, if you choose to not follow God, you are against God and have chosen by your own free will to follow Satan. Thus you will go to the place that Satan and his fallen angels will go–to hell. God does not want anyone to perish and go to hell. He loves us. But he allows us to make the choice.
Sorry for the long comment. I get very passionate about this subject!
Thank you for replying. No need to apologize for the long comments, I’m glad you get passionate about this subject.
Pastor Bill: Aggressive is good!
Aggressiveness is often a sign that the Holy Spirit is at work. It is an encouragement to persevere through love and prayer.
The man last comment is typical and a very common position: Why a good God would let such horrible things takes place?
Having an answer to such and other arguments is good but not the essential. Neither is my ability to defend the argument successfully.
It is more important to lead the person to the ministry of the Holy Spirit who will address the man specific needs. We can do that by being a channel of Christ love and using God’s word to minister to the heart. A good way is to ask the person to read in a Bible the Word him/herself. I like to use the Roman road and even better The John road to salvation. It will lead the discussion to the specific needs of the person for a Savior.
Cutting the argumentation in the bud (asap), gives more time to focus on the real issue: You are a sinner, man, and you need the Savior, Jesus Christ. Once the Word of truth has been planted, we can water it with our prayers.
Oh the love of God that puts up with little man. Oh the pride of little man condeming God that he might be justified. Even the saints fall into this snare of pride and call fowl on God when in fact it is we who are off base. As God told Job,” Are you going to condem me that you might be justified”…. You did him a favor when you brought up sin, rightesousness and judgment. Now he will go to seed one way or the other If he remains a tare he will be gathered with the other tares and thrown into the furnace or he will let Gods word transform his heart and he will be born again. Lets pray for the later.
Love,
Bob
Hi Bill,
I love the comment I heard recently – ” There is a God and your not Him!”
We seek to understand all that there is to understand about God but in doing so we sometimes fail to recognise that if we can fully explain God in human terms then who we describe is not God – we have just managed to reduce Him to humanity!
Nevertheless:
I like the last part of Lynnette’s comment above, that Hell was created for Satan – logically we – mankind choose who we follow and therefore where our destiny will be. The question isn’t about God condemning us to hell it is about – “do we follow Christ into Glory or Satan into hell?”
(I have personal reasons to thank you Bill but will do so 1 to 1) Alan
I’ve had people ask a similar question before — basically he wants to know, “Why would a good God who knows all that will happen before it happens create a world in which evil will flourish, ultimately bringing his judgment and condemnation? What’s the point in that?”
It’s impossible for us to fully understand the mind of God, but we’re not left in the dark on this question (or left to coming up with answers we think make sense). God gives us in the Bible some of his reasons for creating a world that would fall into sin. We can really confuse things if we don’t have what God has said on the subject in mind.
In Romans 9, Paul tells of his anguish that his people Israel are perishing (even wishing that he could be accursed on their behalf, if that were possible) (v.1-3). He then moves on to answer his theoretical opponent who wonders, “Wait, if Israel is perishing, doesn’t that mean God’s promises to Israel have failed?” Paul says no, God’s promise has not failed because not all Israel is Israel — in other words, not all of ethnic Israel is spiritual Israel (v.6-7). It is the “children of promise” to whom the promises were made, not the “children of flesh (v.7-8).
Paul then gives an example from the Old Testament — God chose Jacob and not Esau before either had done anything good or bad “in order that God’s purpose of election might continue.” In other words, because God chose Jacob (the child of promise) and not Esau (the child of the flesh), his promises applied to Jacob, not Esau. And God made the promises apply that way so that his purpose of choosing would be preeminent over Jacob or Esau’s choosing.
Which brings up the obvious question in v.14: “What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part?” Paul knows that the reader will say, “Wait, isn’t it unfair of God to choose Jacob to be the recipient of his promises and not Esau?”
Paul says no, it’s not unjust for God to choose like that. God said, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion” (v.15). For that reason, Paul says, salvation depends NOT on man’s will, but on God’s mercy (v.16). And God’s mercy is freely given to whom he chooses: “he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills” (v.18).
Which, of course, raises the next question Paul addresses: “You will say to me then, ‘Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?’” Paul’s answer to this is very telling. He doesn’t say, “No, you misunderstand what I’m saying. Israel is perishing because the people have chosen to reject Christ — it depends ultimately on their will.” Rather, he says, “But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, ‘Why have you made me like this?’” (v.20)
More to the point for the conversation in the park, God through Paul gives us a little insight in the next couple verses into the ultimate purpose for his sovereign choice of some and not others (and, in the process, his creation of beings he knew he would not save and would turn instead to evil).
Continuing his answer to those who would question God’s righteousness in judging those to whom he chose not to show mercy, Paul says, “What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory — even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?” (v.22-23)
In other words, God’s purpose in creating those who will ultimately perish in their sin is (1) to show his wrath and make known his power and (2) in enduring their sin with much patience, ultimately to make known the riches of his glory for those to whom God chooses to show mercy. It’s all about God showing his glory. Those who will perish in their sin will glorify God in his holy wrath against sin. And those who are prepared beforehand for salvation will glorify God as the objects of his mercy.
Indeed, those who are saved will glorify God even more when they see the wrath that they were saved from. Or, as Paul puts it, God endures the vessels of his wrath in order to make known the riches of the glory of his grace for the vessels of mercy.
Now, would I say all of that to the guy at the park? Probably not, but I might try to get him to think about his question from a Biblical perspective. I would tell him that man’s sin came as no surprise to God. God’s plan of salvation was not Plan B, as if his true plan was to simply create a perfect world into which sin never would come. To the contrary, his plan of creation was bound up with his plan of salvation. God created man knowing that he would sin and that God therefore would subject all mankind and all of creation to death and futility precisely because he wanted to demonstrate the glory of his grace and mercy in Jesus. God’s glorious grace in salvation is shown most clearly when seen in light of his holy wrath against sin.
–Shawn
Amen Shawn! It’s all about the glory of God. That glory is more clearly seen from the black back drop of this world of sin and suffering , from the darkness of man’s heart who will always CHOOSE NOT to follow God. His glory is put on display in the midst of this sin and darkness when He plucks some of us out of our destined destruction and places us on the path to heaven. When He turns the heart of wicked man towards Him and gives him a new heart that loves God. When we see there is nothing we DID to merit any of God’s mercy and grace. Yes, even God’s wrath displays His glory as it demonstrates His justice towards sin, that it MUST be punished. But of course an unbeliever will not understand any of this until the Lord turns the light on in his heart.
One approach I might use is to say “evil and pain being in our world is often a difficult thing to understand when we consider a loving God that could end it immediately. If you would like I could try to explain this from the bible. You might want to consider another thing about God that is also hard to believe. He sends rain for the good and the evil person. He feeds us, sends the sun to warm us and give us light. He gives us air to breathe and displays beauty all around us. He even sent his son to live on earth and suffer the same problems and pains we do. Even after living a sinless life he was willing to suffer and die out of love for us. God does this for everyone even those who curse his name. This kind of love is also hard to understand but the bible tells us about it. Maybe we could try to discuss both of these difficult to understand things about God and the world we see around us.
Hey Pete. Great to see the EE guys getting involved in the blog. Thank you for your comments.
Dear Bill
I am not a biblical scholar and so cannot trawl through scriptures looking for passages to appease or challenge this individual. Neither do I think it would be appropriate to do so either in this circumstance, after all wouldn’t that be akin to casting pearls before swine?
Judging by his earlier comments he has no real concept of who God the Father is, and even less of Christ the Saviour. Being blinded by this sinful world, I feel that he would very soon lose interest and perhaps become even more aggressive were I to begin quoting chapter and verse at him concerning how much of a miserable, wretched sinner he is in need of salvation and how dare he question The Almighty God?
He actually poses a very good question though, one if I am honest that I too have struggled with in various different forms in the past. One that should not be ignored or simply swept aside by a Tsunami of Christianese. That’s not going to save him now is it?
What he is asking amounts to this “If I were God why?” Why would I bother, knowing all that I know about the world and how rotten to the core it is, why bother with creation at all?
The first thing I would try to get him to accept is that he is not God. Why would he want to be? After all it has to be the hardest, worst paid and least rewarding job with the most responsibility ever.
Why is he drawing parallels between himself as creator of a lowly anthill, and God the creator of the universe?
This kind of thinking only serves to highlight just how microscopic in comparison our concepts, knowledge and understanding of matters really are. It’s like comparing a candle flame to the sun, or a billion, billion suns etc. etc. etc.
If he accepts that he is not God, nor indeed anything like God (except for being made in His image as described in the book of Genesis) then he must also accept that He does not and cannot possibly know what God knows.
So we have established and agreed that a.) he is not God and b.) he knows very little (if anything at all) about what was, or is, or is to come.
I would then focus on the latter. What is to come? And of course he would probably revert back to hell fire and damnation and the torching of his anthill, if Revelation is to be believed following the great white throne of Judgement.
But what then after that, if he were God all his ants are now gone and he is all alone again. “Exactly!” he might say “So what’s the point?”
I would then ask him to try to look beyond this, into Eternity past the destruction of his creation. Most people get stuck here and cannot see anything further than this.
They cannot comprehend the Glory of what is to come or imagine that which they do not yet know, let alone understand just how much it will outweigh the misery of now.
I would say to him “Supposing before you burn your anthill you decide in your mercy that you want to take some of them with you rather than be alone again, and to create a new home for them where everything will be perfect?” “How will you choose which ones to take? They’re all bad; none of them do what you tell them to do!”
This is where the concept of a saviour for his ants is introduced (and no puns about the Ant-i-Christ please).
He sends them a Saviour, just like God sent his only Son Jesus Christ to die for us as a blood atonement for our sins.
Those who repent of their ways and choose to follow him get to spend Eternity in his new anthill, those who don’t – well it’s lighter fluid I’m afraid!
So what have we established and agreed? a.) he is not God, b.) he knows nothing of the Glory of what is to come c.) if he did know or could imagine even a little of the glory of what is to come he might just change his mind and choose to save as many of his ants as possible. d.) in order to do this he would need a saviour and his ants are going to have to choose to follow him if they want to inhabit the eternal anthill.
Now all we have to do is persuade him that because he is made in God’s image he is so much more than an ant and so shouldn’t be comparing himself to one. That God has already sent him a Saviour in Jesus Christ who died for his sins on Calvary. That he now has a very big choice to make ‘lighter than air’ or ‘lighter fluid’ and lead him in the sinner’s prayer.
As for his murderer and rapist, well he has the same choice too!
I watched a documentary recently about the earthquake in Haiti which asked a similar question. Why would an all knowing, loving, powerful, merciful God allow such a terrible thing to happen? Could he not have made a perfect world where the tectonic plates didn’t shift around and where tsunamis and earthquakes don’t occur?
The answer is of course, yes he could have, however scientists now believe that this state of flux is responsible for maintaining all forms of planetary life and without it none of us could live here.
We have to remember we know nothing, very little at all. God knows everything. A Christian who was also a scientist (not a Christian scientist) summed it all up beautifully for me at the end. I quote “I believe in a God who wept before Creation. He wept for all the bad things He knew would happen as a result of it – but went ahead anyway.”
I will conclude by paraphrasing Star Trek of all things.
I think it was Mr. Spock who said that “The needs of the many far outweigh the needs of the few or the one.”
For God to have gone ahead with His Creation I feel that -
“The Glory of Eternity must far, far, far outweigh the misery of our past, our present or our future.”
I apologise to anyone who may find my take on this flippant in any way. It is not my intention to offend, I just feel that for Evangelism to be successful with men and women like this in this day and age, we need to answer their questions in language they understand and wherever possible citing their own examples.
Thank you for your comments. This is a very difficult but very real question that many have. I think you’re right that we need to know how to answer these tough questions in language that the average person on the street will understand. Christianese will not work with somebody who doesn’t have a clue what the words we are using mean.